Ms Monster 24/04 19:06 Hello everyone! Since we have so many newcomers to the room as well as to BDSM, in general, I have chosen my topic for this evening to cover issues of consent. Consent and understanding the issues surrounding consent is the very foundation of healthy relationships within the BDSM community, as well as in every aspect of our lives.
kissa 24/04 19:06 Ms Monster, thank you
Ms Monster 24/04 19:06 To start, can someone give me a definition of consent, please?
bob 24/04 19:07 two people that are in agreement in a thought or action
Maureen 24/04 19:07 Giving permission to do something within a certain set of parameters
Ms Monster 24/04 19:07 Absolutely right! Simply put, consent is granting permission for something to happen or an agreement to do something.
Master Albert 24/04 19:07 permission for something to happen or agreement to do something
honey 24/04 19:07 giving someone permission
Ms Monster 24/04 19:08 What are some ways one would go about granting or requesting consent?
Pjosi 24/04 19:08 By doing it or verbally acknowledging it
Maureen 24/04 19:09 Asking the right questions, answering it positively
Master HidoiKaeru 24/04 19:10 also thru forms of contract or mutual checklists
Lee 24/04 19:10 having an open mind to listen to the request
Ms Monster 24/04 19:10 Plain old asking for consent is a sure way to go. Enthusiastic participation is another. Contracts may be something that can be used to gain consent, particularly within a Master/slave relationship. However you go about granting or gaining consent, honest and open communication between all parties is 100% essential!
Ms Monster 24/04 19:12 Can someone please tell me the difference between implied consent and enthusiastic and/or informed consent?
Serrian 24/04 19:12 Implied consent is generally nonverbal, but lacking negative feedback and usually going with the flow, as it were.
Maureen 24/04 19:13 Informed consent can be when the parameters are predetermined and agreed upon. Like rules or a contract
honey 24/04 19:13 Implied to me would mean one has hinted possibly by their positive response, informed would be verbal to me
Maureen 24/04 19:13 When you have to go over and think about each thing before signing off on them
Serrian 24/04 19:14 Enthusiastic = begging.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:14 *smiles*
kissa 24/04 19:14 Ms Monster, enthusiastic consent is saying explicitly "I want this". Informed consent involves a discussion of exactly what will happen and an explicit consent. Implied consent is not an actual consent as it can be interpreted in different ways and is not a positive, verbal consent.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:15 Implied consent is really just the assumption that consent is granted without prior discussion or even necessarily real enthusiasm. This can occur when a person is unable to offer true consent. Such as in scenarios where participants may be intoxicated or where they may not be fully understanding of what is involved. It can even include those who are unconscious. Some may even assume because of a romantic involvement, that consent is granted on that basis alone.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:16 Enthusiastic consent is the great big YES! whether that be verbal or by action. All parties are actively participating and are, well, enthusiastic in their response. They all have a solid understanding of what they have consented to and are very pleased to be participating.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:16 And kissa provided a great answer for informed consent.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:17 She also seemed to figure out my very next question. And here, the topic may invite some opposing viewpoint.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:17 Is implied consent really consent at all?
kissa 24/04 19:17 nope
honey 24/04 19:18 I guess it would depend on the relationship & how they participants interact & maybe expectations they each have
Ms Monster 24/04 19:19 honey Can you give us an example, please?
Maureen 24/04 19:19 Not in regards to intoxicated or unconscious.
bob 24/04 19:19 to fuzzy not enough info to make a intelligent decision
honey 24/04 19:20 well if Lee knows me well I do not necessarily verbally consent to every single thing so it is implied I am good with it, until I am not lol
Pjosi 24/04 19:21 Isnt that a bit covered with a safeword as well?
Ms Monster 24/04 19:21 Would you be actively and enthusiastically participating until that point, honey?
Ms Monster 24/04 19:22 We will get to safewords very shortly.
honey 24/04 19:22 possibly
Maureen 24/04 19:22 LOL depends on the activity right honey
honey 24/04 19:22 most certainly lol
Ms Monster 24/04 19:23 This is quite a dangerous assumption. In my opinion, it is not true consent. It can be offensive and harmful to everyone involved to assume that someone wants to participate when they have not given a crystal clear indication that they do. This is my opinion.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:24 This being said. There are thing that would be considered consensual non-consent.
honey 24/04 19:24 and I respect your opinion
Ms Monster 24/04 19:24 Does anyone have an example of this?
esmay 24/04 19:24 Ms Monster where it was good, or bad?
Ms Monster 24/04 19:24 Likewise, honey.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:25 esmay More like a definition or and example of a consensual activity that would be considered non-consensual under normal circumstances.
Lee 24/04 19:25 i would also think that with implied consent there is a high level of trust and knowing your partner.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:26 Lee Indeed. A great point.
honey 24/04 19:26 blanket consent basically I give you the permission to do well whatever and I am okay with that
esmay 24/04 19:26 Ms Monster Ms Monster I'm guessing when I don't want a spanking, but knew I'd get it if I did something wrong because we agreed in the beginning of our relationship it would be so. But the Duke and I have been married for 11 years, so we have built that trust....
Ms Monster 24/04 19:27 honey esmay both fantastic answers!
Ms Monster 24/04 19:28 Another thing can be a play scenario where there is an "assaulty" It is a scene, planned out in advance and consented to by all parties. Yet, under normal circumstances, this would be considered a non-consensual assault.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:29 My personal favourite, is "Sleep assault" where, When I am awake, I have granted my partner full consent to take advantage of me while I am sleeping.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:30 If I had not already granted consent for this to occur, it would be a sexual assault as I am not able to grant consent in the moment.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:31 But we have talked about it, I know it may sometimes happen and I have granted permission in advance.
Maureen 24/04 19:32 Wow waking me up just makes me mad. LOL
Pjosi 24/04 19:32 Interesting
Ms Monster 24/04 19:32 Maureen .. lol.. It certainly isn't for everyone.
Maureen 24/04 19:33 Sex is different. He wakes me up to spank me. Not in a fun way either
Ms Monster 24/04 19:33 Any questions so far?
bob 24/04 19:33 I can see that going south so many ways. What protects the perpetrator from really getting into trouble with the law should the pretend victim turns on them?
Pjosi 24/04 19:33 bob written consent, i think
bob 24/04 19:33 shouldn't it be written before hand?
Ms Monster 24/04 19:34 bob Contracts is another. And so is trust between partners. Ther is also safewords and other means of revoking consent even after it had been initially granted
Ms Monster 24/04 19:34 Pjosi bob Things of this nature can certainly be in a written contract, yes.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:35 How would one go about revoking consent if the need arose?
bob 24/04 19:35 safeword
honey 24/04 19:35 some use a safe word, some just are able to tell the person I am not okay with this
Ms Monster 24/04 19:35 bob honey Absolutely!
Ms Monster 24/04 19:36 The easiest and simplest way is to simply say ‘no’ or ‘stop’. Within the BDSM community, this often accomplished with the use of a SAFEWORD or gesture, if one is unable to verbally communicate.
Pjosi 24/04 19:36 Ms Monster I would hope by talking about it. Explaining why you cant or dont want to. If that doesnt work, finding someone to back you up
Ms Monster 24/04 19:36 Pjosi Exactly. By communicating our limits and desires to our partners.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:37 For those unaware of what a safeword is, it is simply a word or gesture that indicates that consent has been revoked and that all activity MUST cease immediately.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:37 An awful lot of BDSM play involves roleplay where the words ‘no’ or ‘stop’ may be part of the actual play. A safeword can be any word that would not normally be used in whatever scenario you are playing out. Many participants will use traffic light colours to indicate their level of comfort. Green=Go; Yellow=Caution; Red=Stop. But really, you can use whatever will be easy for you to remember.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:37 An example of a gesture may be to simply tap out. I have also personally seen D types employ the use of a clicker or squeak toy for the s type to use to indicate revoked consent, particularly if both bound and gagged.
amalthea 24/04 19:38 *looks at the room* or something like holding a small ball you drop if it's enough
kissa 24/04 19:38 ex. my husband is fond of joking about using "mayonnaise"
Ms Monster 24/04 19:39 amalthea It certainly can be, yes. It is always important to work out your word and/or gesture with your D type in advance.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:39 kissa That's a good one too.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:39 My personal safeword is 'pencil'. Always has been.
kissa 24/04 19:39 I think it was Dossie Easton that made it clear that "Stop what you're doing right now, you fucking asshole" acceptable.
kissa 24/04 19:40 i'm a stoplight gal, m'self.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:40 There is no conceivable way 'pencil' would be a word that would naturally pop up in a scene. Yet it is simple, and easy to remember.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:40 kissa It absolutely is. I love her books!
honey 24/04 19:40 kissa that might not work as well here LOL the Stop what you are doing you Fing a$$hole
Maureen 24/04 19:41 I don’t have a safe word
kissa 24/04 19:41 Ms Monster, ditto. i have never used "stop/no"
kissa 24/04 19:41 Maureen, why not?
honey 24/04 19:41 I have had one from the start have never used it
kissa 24/04 19:41 honey, why is that?
Ms Monster 24/04 19:41 Maureen What about a gesture or some way to say "We need to stop now"
Ms Monster 24/04 19:42 honey I've used mine once.
honey 24/04 19:42 bc I have told him to stop many times and maybe have called him a name or two but he knew he didnt need to stop
Pjosi 24/04 19:42 I used a couple different ones. It is smarter to find a word that fits and stick with it tho. So you don't forget
Maureen 24/04 19:42 We don’t scene play. Just discipline.
kissa 24/04 19:42 remember, a safeword/gesture isn't always about revoking consent. Sometimes it's just "I have a cramp" or "Yikes, that really hurt in a bad way" or even "need water"
Ms Monster 24/04 19:42 kissa Excellent point!
kissa 24/04 19:43 honey, i'm a potty mouth, I get it, though it's the word combo that does it.
honey 24/04 19:43 yes that is one of the reasons i wanted one (cramp) he can read me well so I beleive that is why I have never had to use it yet anyway
Ms Monster 24/04 19:43 A safeword can be used to communicate some kind of discomfort or a need for a change in the scene, or even a short break.
Maureen 24/04 19:43 I don’t need a safe word for cramps or water. I can just tell him. He always lets me fix a cramp. Not always water
amalthea 24/04 19:44 thats why i think personaly that many people use stop signd yellow = i need your attention to take a check in. red = i cant handle more now we most stop
Pjosi 24/04 19:44 "I need to pee" stays an amusing one
Ms Monster 24/04 19:44 Maureen That is understandable. It is part of your dynamic and agreed to.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:44 Pjosi Indeed! lol
honey 24/04 19:44 lol yep that one works well
Pjosi 24/04 19:45 Ms Monster especially in the middle of bondage *chuckles*
Maureen 24/04 19:45 I think discipline is different than the normal play stuff. We can’t just say stop because we want it over 😢
Song_Yung 24/04 19:45 I was letting TLSCP know what today's topic was about and she saw something on tumblr that sort of hit the nail on the head too
Ms Monster 24/04 19:45 Please share, Song_Yung.
Pjosi 24/04 19:45 I would say you can use it im discipline too. When it gets too much
Song_Yung 24/04 19:45 She said.. someone asked... why do people complain about getting rained on yet take a shower without complaint. A person responded with a single word "consent"
Pjosi 24/04 19:46 You should always be able to bring things to a halt
Ms Monster 24/04 19:46 Song_Yung That is actually rather astute.
Pjosi 24/04 19:46 Song_Yung oh that is a good one!
Song_Yung 24/04 19:46 I thought the same Ms Monster and Pjosi and it was such a good example about consent
Maureen 24/04 19:47 If you stop discipline on your own terms you’re not learning the lesson
Song_Yung 24/04 19:47 Pjosi, Domestic Disipline has a different function and dynamic where when BDSM plays are not being employed, a good conversation is usually good enough
Ms Monster 24/04 19:47 Song_Yung Analogies can be very useful when explaining concepts, for sure.
amalthea 24/04 19:48 Maureen if only you could stop disciplin sometimes *giggles*
Pjosi 24/04 19:48 Maureen Difference in lifestyle perhaps, but i have and will always stop a discipline if the sub in question is not comfortable with it.
Maureen 24/04 19:48 Define comfort?
honey 24/04 19:49 discipline really isnt comfortable here lol but it isnt supposed to be here
Ms Monster 24/04 19:49 Issues of consent can and do vary by dynamic, certainly.
Song_Yung 24/04 19:49 I think a discipline could be stopped if the correction being used is going to cause psychological and emotional terror where it is going to have larger consequences on the person receiving it
Ms Monster 24/04 19:50 Song_Yung Very nice point!
Song_Yung 24/04 19:50 I think that would define where discomfort would be excessive and would need to stop
honey 24/04 19:50 I would hope the ppl involved would know that much about one another
Maureen 24/04 19:51 The point of true discipline isn’t comfort. It’s lesrning. You can’t learn the lessons if you constantly cause it to stop. Pain and discomfort are part of the routine. Do I like it. Not at the time but I know it’s whats needed and will feel differently when it’s over
Pjosi 24/04 19:51 Maureen I used to paddle my ex-subs bottom when she did wrong. I stopped it the moment she said her safeword, because it brought up a memory and she needed to be comforted about that.
Pjosi 24/04 19:51 Maybe i used the wrong word, apologies.
Song_Yung 24/04 19:51 agreed honey, but as all things certain in life, it changes and what may have been ok at one point may no longer apply due to changes in life may have caused a shift
bob 24/04 19:51 yes in a case like that but the HOH knows how far to discipline their tih because they pay attention to their body language and listen to their voice also
Maureen 24/04 19:52 Pjosi if used to often it could also be a way of getting out of it
Maureen 24/04 19:52 Which is no good for either of you
Ms Monster 24/04 19:52 bob I am sure there is also discussion revolving around what works and what doesn't.
Song_Yung 24/04 19:53 example but using a BDSM Kink play for this example if I may?
Ms Monster 24/04 19:53 In the end, it does come down to solid communication between all parties. It is always important to discuss limits.
Ms Monster 24/04 19:53 Song_Yung please.
Pjosi 24/04 19:53 Maureen *nods* definitely. If you know each other well enough that should not be a problem, i hope
honey 24/04 19:53 I am in a long term relationship and have been for a long time I would certainly hope he would know the changes or shift. if he doesn't we might just have a problem
Song_Yung 24/04 19:54 TLSCP and I were teaching a submissive about general simple rules protocol but he was free to do his own thing. We were aware of some extra things due to it had grown into a lovely friendship. He went out and consented to a breath play scene
Ms Monster 24/04 19:54 honey In which case, I am sure there would be discussion on limits moving forward.
Song_Yung 24/04 19:54 he returned telling us all about it and how much he enjoyed it. I had a conniption and knee jerked about it
Song_Yung 24/04 19:55 He has severe high blood pressure and I yelled at him to place that on his hard limits and nix that play. He was consensual in the play but he forgot, life changed and he could have ended in a dire situation
Maureen 24/04 19:55 I probably would have a knee jerk reaction too
Pjosi 24/04 19:56 damn, that is a hell of a thing to forget
honey 24/04 19:56 I agree
Ms Monster 24/04 19:56 Song_Yung Thanks for the example.
Song_Yung 24/04 19:57 honey, I have been with my coDomme for 8 years. Sometimes, we think we communicated things well and honestly, we failed to tell the other things changed. It can happen
annie 24/04 19:57 excellent example
Song_Yung 24/04 19:57 I feel it is not due to not knowing each other, it is the accidental omission of the communication
Ms Monster 24/04 19:57 And given the example, here is my next question:
Ms Monster 24/04 19:57 Can anyone tell me what the term “Safe, Sane, Consensual” (SSC) means and why it is so important to follow?
honey 24/04 19:57 I am sure it can happen, we both read another very well, It could happen I just kinda doubt it with us right now anyway
annie 24/04 19:59 the scene must be safe for all, all agree to what hapoens, and wellbeing is considered
Song_Yung 24/04 19:59 Safety is paramount for physical of both the Dominant and the submissive. Either can get hurt if focus is not on par by either party. No one should ever play under the influence of anything, tired, or any form of distraction
Maureen 24/04 19:59 Means proceeding while being safe not stupid, sane not crazy and always with consent.
Pjosi 24/04 19:59 They are the building stones of a BDSM relationship. Think about what you do, what it would do to the other and what risks there are, then ask their consent
Ms Monster 24/04 19:59 Wonderful definitions, all. Thank you.
Song_Yung 24/04 20:00 Sane is part of the safety word again. Nothing should interfere with the well being of all involved parties on a mental and emotional level
Ms Monster 24/04 20:00 Safe, Sane, Consensual adds quite a bit more depth and complexity to the issue of consent. The BDSM umbrella is huge and will, sometimes, include some rather extreme fetishes, lifestyles or desires.
Ms Monster 24/04 20:00 It is always important to ask yourself the following questions before engaging in proposed activities whether you be a D or s type, new to the scene or an experienced hand at it.
Song_Yung 24/04 20:00 Consensual is the ensuring that nothing is done without both parties being quite aware of intent of the path about to be traversed together
Ms Monster 24/04 20:00 1. Is this activity SAFE; Would any participant be in danger of physical, emotional or mental harm by participating?
Ms Monster 24/04 20:01 2. Is this activity SANE; Is this activity something someone fully in possession of their mental faculties would participate in, given any and all safety measures in place?
Ms Monster 24/04 20:01 3. Are ALL parties fully informed and able to CONSENT; Has consent been gained and granted? Has there been open communication and discussion about this activity that would influence the decision to consent?
Ms Monster 24/04 20:01 For example: If the answer to question 1 is ‘yes’, the activity is not SSC. If the answer to question 2 and either part of question 3 is ‘no’, the activity is not SSC.
Maureen 24/04 20:01 LOL and yet there are many fetishes that are neither safe nor sane.
Ms Monster 24/04 20:02 Maureen We refer to that as edge play
Ms Monster 24/04 20:02 Where the boundaries of SSC are pushed a little.
Maureen 24/04 20:02 Some people have way different edges than others. Their life. More power to them
Maureen 24/04 20:04 Some people don’t think submitting to discipline is very sane. Some days I don’t either LOL
honey 24/04 20:04 lol
Ms Monster 24/04 20:04 No edge play is entirely safe. But it can be made safer with safety measures.
kissa 24/04 20:05 Maureen, there are other tentants to look into then, there's PRICK and RACK, as well. The whole safe and sane thing is sometimes... not what we do.
Ms Monster 24/04 20:05 kissa Indeed.
Song_Yung 24/04 20:05 I do not think anyone truly likes submitting to discipline. It comes down to the acceptance of it out of necessity of the relationship growth to know a disappointment may have happened and to try to endeavor not to repeat it or make a habit of it?
kissa 24/04 20:05 *both espouse consent, though
Song_Yung 24/04 20:06 hence a consent to accept the punishment/correction
Ms Monster 24/04 20:06 kissa Thank you kissa. Those are fantastic terms as well.
Ms Monster 24/04 20:07 Has anyone got any further questions, examples, points of discussion they would like to see covered?
Maureen 24/04 20:09 What is PRICK & RACK
Pjosi 24/04 20:09 Ms Monster Do you think there is a thing as too much consent?
Ms Monster 24/04 20:09 Pjosi Never.
Song_Yung 24/04 20:10 Personal Risk Informed Consensual Kink
Ms Monster 24/04 20:10 Be enthusiastic! Proclaim your consent long and loud, if you wish. I don't think there is ever too much consent. Only not enough.
honey 24/04 20:10 Risk aware consensual kink w Variations Risk aware consensual kink
Song_Yung 24/04 20:10 Risk Aware Consensual Kink
Ms Monster 24/04 20:11 Thank you Song_Yung and honey.
Maureen 24/04 20:11 Thank you
Serrian 24/04 20:11 Begging!
honey 24/04 20:11 prick is more personal responsibiity
Ms Monster 24/04 20:11 Serrian Absolutely, handsome.
bob 24/04 20:12 I knew that just wanted to see if anyone else did lol
kissa 24/04 20:12 Personal Responsibility Informed Consensual Kink
Song_Yung 24/04 20:12 Thank you Ms Monster
Ms Monster 24/04 20:12 In summary, consent, on the surface is a black and white issue. Either it is granted or it is not. But it is also a complex one in the BDSM world. There are so many thing that can complicate what consent looks like.
annie 24/04 20:12 great discussion. thank you
aurora27 24/04 20:13 Ms Monster thank you for such a good discussion
Lee 24/04 20:13 agree...great topic and enjoyed it
Song_Yung 24/04 20:13 honey we have started a calendar
Ms Monster 24/04 20:13 Thank you all so much for taking the time to be here with us to talk about this important issue. As always, I encourage questions and further discussion at any time. For those who would like to discuss this issue further in privacy, my inbox is open. Thanks again, everyone!
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